drive flange theory

Tech Q&A for the VTX 1800 - PLEASE keep this section tech-oriented only!

Oppinions after this year, please read or have read this.

1 I see and understand the wear and how its created in this post
10
38%
2 I don't see anything, the marks are coincidence
0
No votes
3 Press on the ID of the bearing is killing this
1
4%
4 Press on the od of the bearing is killing this
2
8%
5 Its a combination of press and the forces
1
4%
6 This post was well worth while
12
46%
 
Total votes : 26

drive flange theory

Postby big bad » Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:10 pm

If you are reading this or posting this information please reference it came form bares site, please read it carefully there is a lot of information here. I believe it to be correct.


Understand this issue affects every flange, 13 or 1800's alike. The degree of the failure is dependant on riding style and what you have done to your bike

This is 19pgs of my findings all together

With all the drive flange failures I figured its time to look at this i have 32000 miles on my 05 f with 3 failures in the first 31k Here is my theory and my fix for the future. At the point where your reading this Inow have 5k on my new set up ad have inspected it at least every 10k there are pics deeper in page 20 something.



All bearings are designed for a reason to handle 3 types of forces
Thrust load - the force applied to the front or back of a bearing
Radial load - the force down on a bearing
Torque load - the force applied around the bearing, if the bearing is not centered under or after the transfer of energy, the shaft wants to walk or twist.
The torque is highest on the flange momentary just after the shifts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwc5p03vAZ4

There is virtually no weight on the flange, it won't spin more than 1500 Rpm, and there is no direct pressure from the towards the wheel or final drive. This leaves one Torque. The following 19pgs were designed to talk about this

The final drive flange applies allot of force and the vtx has a tone of torque, at a stop sign when you hammer on the throttle the power from your final drive goes through the splines to the flange and transfers 100 lbs of torque to your cush drive...... this wouldn't be that big of deal if the bearings were space apart. one in the splines and one 3 inches closer to the center of the wheel... there is not that much contact area on 6905 bearings to take that amount of torque there's actually less than 3/8 of an inch
so
by this post off the oa it seems 1800s are having 8 failures to 1 failure on the 1300 leads me to believe its a torque-twist strain in the bearings
http://www.vtxoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45218&highlight=flange+bearing&page=2
i hope this helps some one understand and maybe i missed something let me know I'm throwing this out for discussion.
The variables are, riding style and habits, trailers, front fairings, 1300 finals on and 1800, and more horsepower. All these things deliver more torque delivered to the wheel

Here's the average outer bearings from a failure, from what I have seen and others it is the spline side bearing that disintegrates first a further you hopefully will understand why.
Image
Image
Image

After you run on bad bearings for a while, they will eventually get so hot they will weld the inner races to the collar and that will weld itself to the final drive collar. A very good example is here.
Image
A victim http://www.vtxoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253639&highlight=rear+axle+stuck The conclusion http://www.vtxoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253736&highlight=rear+axle+stuck



How the torque affects it
Another imagine when you extend your arms going swimming your strongest stroke is when it is perpendicular to your body, applying more load as you go past perpendicular it has less of an affect to propel you. This is much like a flange from the aspect that the cush rubber that is between the front of the tire and the ground will have more force than the other 4.

Just as a motor in a car twists as you rev it this torque makes the motor want to twist. The crank spins 360 degrees? it should not move? this is torque. As you accelerate form a stop sign your flange is over coming the resistance of the ground, pushing behind you, the rubbers are not a bearing surface and if one has more pressure it throws the driving end of the flange off center.

Image
When you push on a ratchet the force in the first 90 degrees is more than the other 270 degrees. Ever break a bolt? Many time this happens because of inadequate support of the head of the ratchet. In this case putting a bearing directly under the cush rubbers is like putting a hand on the head of the ratchet when you use a 12 inch extension

Its simple hyper physics, borrowed from here http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/rotv.html#rvec1
Image
Image

Image

DEFINITION OF TOURQUE
Definition: A rotational or twisting force, torque is the force that causes things to turn or rotate
Twist = movement

Also cush rubbers compress a lot more closer to the final than they do farther towards the wheel, that's simple leverage, and it ain't helping anything either, that ring that holds the cush plate in the wheel was Honda's best chance to keep this twisting from happening it didn't work, i would not suggest pulling that ring out your bearings will go bad in a hurry.


So if the flange has an inherent flex, under rotation, and the stock ball bearings are cannot take anything but a straight load, by spreading the bearings out, it will be alleviate the leverage
Image
This is a stock set of the flange bearings 2 single row 9mm ball bearings side by side. Its called a duplex set. They are only capable of radial loads.(perpendicular to the shaft)
Image

This is the angle of momentum in a diagram The dimensions show the width of support under a normal radial load. Well with in its limits, however when an thrust load is applied the bearings ride off center of the races, instead of .52 inches to carry the weight you only have .35 inches.
Image

Both balls hit in one infinite spot on the races like this, remember if the balls were the same diameter as the radius of the race the bearing would seize the next image shows that infinite spot, again more pressure, more heat, The pic below is a close up where the red dot is above.
Image


The Stock Flaw Proven
What your looking at is a stock bearing caught before any failure has occurred, my intent was to take the races and cut them in half to see the wear patterns were the balls ride. The id bushing was hiding a tattle tale sign for how the failures occur in the form of heat patterns, normally a bearing will wear evenly across the races like shown in figure C. (inside the races you cant see till you cut them apart), you will see "shiny" all across the race like shown on the lowest pic (notice its only shiny on the outside of the race and the bearings are flipped so you can see left and right wear patterns. The bearing inner race is marked with a Sharp to give you more of a visual where the heat trace marks relate to other pics.

In order to first fix any problem you must find the root cause. I believe i now know the root cause and can take action to cure it.

Upper Left___________________________________
Look at the upper left pic and you will see that the trace mark is only on the top half of the bearing on the inner race it is very clear and evident. Note that the mark IS NOT IN CENTER

UPPER RIGHT______________________________________
The upper right bearing is same bearing rotated 180 degrees in the inner race. You will notice (left side) that the trace mark is low on the bottom and fades. As this trace mark fades the balls track to the other side and the trace mark starts at the top and gets darker as it continues around the diameter.

CENTER 2 PICS _______________________________________
These pics show when the bearing is cut in half the linear wear pattern, the left pic has the trace mark low a little closer to center and as it translates to the right race it noticeable changes load on the upper most portion of the race. the right pic gives you an idea of the lighter mark (note the bearings were set as a mirror image in these center pics you can tell by the Sharp marks or the white lines. There is definitely a change of load on the inner races keep in mind the inner race is locked down by the crush sleeves. As stated above in another post it is imperative that the axle nut be torqued down tight so none of the sleeves or inner races move or rotate under acceleration.


LOWEST PICTURES____________________________________
this is the inside of the outer race. The outer race rotates and will have wear patterns were the balls actually contact in rotation. I have done investigative work in bearings for many years and this is my map for whats going on. You can see the bearings are transferring the load only on the outside of the race one race is flipped so you can see left and right side wear pattern.
Another torque derived a failure
Image
Image


Drawings at the bottom

A and B shows wear or heat if the bearing has a full linear thrust load on it. It is the #1 failure of bearings

C shows what you will see on a normally good condition bearing that has served a full life time in normal operating conditions

F shows the linear scale for what is shown on the inner race for heat trace markings .
Image

The Solution
The goal is to provide additional support, basically get a bearing as close as we can to being under the rubbers. Also because the spline side bearing sees more force due to the leverage. That will be where I put the needle bearing. The additional support and the load ratings make this bearing setup 5x more tolerant of the torque. Many will say that the needle bearing is not rated for high Rpm. This is also very funny. There is a needle bearing inside the final drive holding the end of the pinion against the ring gear. Not only will it rotate 3x faster than this one. But the forces on it are immense.
So to resolve this I put the needle bearing in to spread surface of the bearing out creating less leverage on the spline side bearing, since its not a ball, its a needle it supports more weight over a larger area
Image
the contact area is larger and the needle that carries the incurred weight of the leverage cannot ride up the race of the bearing, the leverage angle is lessened, the needle can carry more weight by design and it will be over 16mm not an infinite point.
Image
Needle only test. This is a needle only, in my personal bike, it will fail 5x faster than the additional support of the extra 9mm of the ball bearing in addition to the needle. The inner collar inspection at 5k
Image
1 the top yellow deviation shows a grid of 16 marks every mark is roughly 1.25mm, The tracking trail tells me that the bearing outer race is not pushed into center, its true i did it for 2 reasons, more strain on the bearing farther towards the flange you go, = better test.
The other reason is, i gave more room to get it out from the back side. remember the inner race is 18mm and the outer race is 17 mm. plus the flange dose want to walk towards the final and the needle bearing won't try to stop it, the pressure exerted is never going to come close to affecting the angular contact bearings. So i who cares.

2 The pink lines show the exact constraints that the needles contact the inner race, I did this for some that may be learning how a needle bearing is constructed. The needles are about 55% the face width. VS the stock application that is less than 25%, this is contact area of the balls.

3 The black triangle, The black triangle shows the majority of the pressure exerted on the 60% of the inner race, more than likely this area is between the shaft and the ground.

4 The black box, the black box shows the fulcrum of the twist there is a Lil color difference but nothing that makes me nervous.

5 The little red line are to show clean unburnished steel and this bearing would look uniform like that at the RPM and same physical load with out the torque.

6 The brown magic marker at the top of each section I drew on there so i could mach them up like this, and get them closer for better effect.


15K inspection more than 2x life if any stock dual sealed
The o,90,180,270, marks depict the faces of the collar in degrees. The reasons for the change in color is because the collar is stationary it shows the actual pressure path the needle bearings run. This path is not even around the diameter, i feel this is due to the flange being torqued. This is conducive to the reason this post was started.

Image

1000 lbs of bike, roughly center of weight is directly under the engine about 4 feet from center of tire 1000lbs x 4ft = 4000ft lbs. That's 2 tons of force on a 1ft breaker bar over the splines, to get the front tire off the ground. We underestimate the forces at work. You may need a bigger wrench, or if you push with 150 ft lbs you will need a 27ft cheater bar. Now Keep in mind that the. When all is said and done, the the flange is 4 inches long and unsupported. Don't forget to throw in a 3 inch extension on your breaker bar.

Running with out a set of bearings.
It is my belief that the forces that hurt bearings would hurt something else. If the bearings were removed think of it this way.

1 If the bearings were to be removed would the forces still be applied?
Yes, they would exert pressure on other components

2 What would that hurt?
The next components are
Splines in final drive, they would rub themselves to death because they would not be parallel, like this.
this is last years bent and twisted drive shaft
Image
Run after bearings imploded

Wheel bearings The wheel bearing is already a heavier class bearing because of these forces, never compromise safety. Wheel bearings are necessary
Cush Rubbers The rubbers would fail. They would leave a rubber dust like material and get soft over time.
This is all opinion. The forces will have an affect over time on all of these things, I am very open to some one trying this, and show. You may even get lucky and wear the splines in the final drive to the point where it cracks? Not to mention every time you get on the gas, it beats the inside of your wheel again and again because of the twist induced :elated:
Image

I can guarantee, If it was bearings were removed and you ran a x down the road at 70mph the final drive temp would go from 90-100 degrees to 180+ .

I do believe it bearings are essential. The greater flaw was not the bearings but where the bearings are in the flange (they should have been directly under the rubbers and allow the splines to be unsupported.

Stock Replacement 2Rs

While you are replacing bad bearings, you did not correct the problem that led to they're demise. 2Rs suffix on the end of the replacements in 6905 - 2rs Will last longer, not necessarily because of a better brand, or install procedure
The stock bearings are only sealed on one side, pressed together and somewhat protected. For the steel to physically burn and leave a scale it obtains high temperatures I somewhere around 600 degrees or higher depending on the properties of the steel. Most bearing grease has a dropping point of 400 degrees to 600 degrees. When the grease hits the dropping point or shear point the viscosity drops violently. The stock bearings do nto have the seal to retain the grease in the lowest point of the bearing. The grease instead runs out to the center between the bearings where the seal would have been and a majority never gets a chance to reenter the bearing path.

The replacement dual seal retains the grease when the shear point is hit. The seal is a 100% seal on the outer race and a close seal on the inner race. The centrifugal force keeps the grease to the outer race or on the balls and it never gets a chance to migrate out to the inner bearing seal lip.

If there is thoughts on that the bearings are cheap from honda I would say that's a null point. The critical factor is that the seals do not retain the grease when the bearings are stressed and the heat is generated from opinions previously expressed.




Surprising Facts

The needle bearing and ball bearing set up is used by Yamaha, in many of they're big cruisers, this design is a replica of a design that is not well known, because it is not a prevalent failure. Used on Roadliner,warrior, and raider- all they're big bore bikes
Check it out http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche.com/Xtremepowersports/Yamaha_OEM/YamahaMC.asp?Type=13&A=607&B=30


stock bearing single
6905 force applied in kn dynamic 6630kn-----------------4000kn static
144268 psi 87040 psi
Stock set up duplex set x2
288563psi 174080 psi
my replacement converted dynamic 16300kn-------------- 21500kn static
354688 psi 465905 psi


Proper install method
when you have everything installed for the swing arm and wheel the swing arm to final drive must be loose, keep wiggle room between them. Rotate the wheel as you tighten the Axel bolt down, compressing all the crush sleeves and bearings. The bushing id and the Axel od are not a tight fit. This will ensure everything is in center and is unaffected by the final drive. Then after the Axel is tightened down, crank the swing arm to final down (4 14mm bolts)

4-27-09, 31195 mi installed needle bearing only to see if a "drop in" replacement will be reliable, or machining bore and installing a needle bearing and a 6905
current mi 64.940-----total 33,745 11 /11/10

5-14-09 29200 mi Installed a triple set of 6905 bearings in a machined housing and a bushing to suit, thanks lance aka caps. 3x contact area, 2x dissipation of leverage, bearing is closer to applied force, bushing selected was .0002 over stock replacement and bearings. he will be running fag bearings
http://www.bearingkinetics.com/kbc-bearings.htm he he, 6 bucks a pop
current mileage 43087mi----- total 13887

52909 33,045mi Installed single ball bearing and needle bearing in 1300c 06
current mileage 39005----- total 5960 8-1-09



References for users
http://www.gizmology.net/bearings.htm
ADDED research else where

Honda Stock bearing part number 91052-KZ4-J21, Bushing 42624-MCH-000

http://www.vtxoa.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2707716#post2707716either, that ring that holds the cush plate in the wheel was Honda's best chance to keep this twisting from happening it didn't work, i would not suggest pulling that ring out your bearings will go bad in a hurry.
Last edited by big bad on Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:48 pm, edited 57 times in total.
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby Bareass172 » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:03 am

I am very, very interested in this discussion... I have watched this problem for years and always been annoyed by it. Up until recently it hasn't driven me as crazy because I have always been fortunate to be able to replace the bearings without issue. Well a few weeks ago I had my first failure caused by the replacement process. The simple act of pressing the bearings into the flange made the bearing start clicking and grinding.

To give a little background to this, and to hopefully keep this conversation going because it is of great interest to me I'll throw out the fact that the bore you press the bearings into is tapered. I am no machinist, but I have machinist tools and am fairly good with them and I have found that the taper is as much as .008-.010" just from the top to the bottom. I would love to see someone who has a flange and better measuring tools than I pull this measurement to verify or disprove how far off my figure is. I just know that I measured with a caliper from the top and the difference from top to almost the bottom (my caliper would not reach) was about .008". I'm guessing that if my caliper were big enough to measure the entire bore it would be about .010".

This is a significant amount and I can't for the life of me figure why it's there. This does help explain a bit about the number of failures seen, as well as the fact that brand new flanges from Honda come out of the box broken, and the fact that someone like me who has a lot of experience replacing bearings can still end up with a bearing going bad while being pressed in.

I will say I'm surprised that you found a needle replacement, I had looked (admittedly not terribly thoroughly) for one before with no luck.

I have spoken with a handful of people about this and we've all agreed to start keeping better track of the flanges we replace for now to see if we can find a pattern - anything that would help explain why some guys ride 100k miles with zero problems while others ride 10k and need a replacement. We're going to be keeping a log of year/make/model bike, mileage at the time of failure, and if possible detailed measurements of the bore to determine if the taper is consistent or not.

If anyone else has anything to add, please do - this has me and a handful of other people stumped and I know we all want a viable solution. ;)
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby IL-Mark » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:09 pm

Well my post could be identical to Bare's. I must say that I'm intrigued with your theory. I'd be interested in the bearing # and do you have a source?

I should also add that I also have a theory regarding the taper that is cut in the flange. I believe that in the machining process, the cutter is fed to fast and there is flexing of the cutting tool creating the taper.
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby big bad » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:18 pm

yes the taper should mot be there, usually a press fit is .0001 to .0015 in extreame cases beyond that it takes thermal expansion to press a part in depending on material. i have 5 cush hubs available and will check them, i dont believe a hardened bearing would physicly compress but i think an out of round issue would make bearings tight top and bottom and loose left and right, if that bore is tapered during that process, it has a 80% chance of being eggshaped even if it was done in a lathe. i didn't post the number for fear of some guy doing a search and finding that number i will pm for anyone else that asks

but keep in mind until i run mine for 10000 miles this summer we really don't know
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby verbatim » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:21 am

Even though I haven't had a failure on mine yet, I'm also interested in knowing more about the root cause of these failures, simply because I've read so much about them. My '02 C (serial no. 000485) with approx 30K miles has never had a problem with the flange bearings (touch wood).

Bare, are those numbers for real???? .008-.010"? That seems huge, considering that the press on these bearings should be in the .001-.002" range. I would think that it would be virtually impossible to press bearings into that tight of a taper? Did you maybe mean .0008-.001"? Just curious because in my experience that amount of undersize on a press fit of that small of a diameter would be catastrophic when trying to press. It certainly would explain a lot if this is the case.
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby IL-Mark » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:45 pm

verbatim wrote:Even though I haven't had a failure on mine yet, I'm also interested in knowing more about the root cause of these failures, simply because I've read so much about them. My '02 C (serial no. 000485) with approx 30K miles has never had a problem with the flange bearings (touch wood).

Bare, are those numbers for real???? .008-.010"? That seems huge, considering that the press on these bearings should be in the .001-.002" range. I would think that it would be virtually impossible to press bearings into that tight of a taper? Did you maybe mean .0008-.001"? Just curious because in my experience that amount of undersize on a press fit of that small of a diameter would be catastrophic when trying to press. It certainly would explain a lot if this is the case.

\
Hey..who let you in here?? LOL welcome :break: :beer:
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby IL-Mark » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:51 pm

I would think that if you had a 8-10k taper and the bearing pressed in you would get a ...(wish I knew how to do some graphics) OK if your looking at a horizontal line and put a pitch on one side of the line the bigger side would look like a orange getting pealed. Sorry lame description...
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby big bad » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:04 pm

i am also thinking if this needle bearing dose not work ill find one with a smaller id that replaces the sleeve that gets pressed in i haven't found a 20mm bearing to get down to the shaft diameter but i would make a collar to get really close. the needle bearing was 35 bucks, Ive spent more money on worse ideas
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby Bareass172 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:03 pm

Let me be clear, I took the measurement while holding the flange in one hand and working the caliper with the other. My caliper wasn't deep enough to measure to the entire depth of the bore and I was fumbling a little with it. So it may not be exact, but I still believe it's not that far off. Even a factor of 50% difference is still .004"-.005" - and to be clear, yes I am talking about thousandths and not ten thousandths. I can say that it was enough of a difference that with the caliper square in the bore and as deep as I could get it I could see space between the caliper and the bore near the top of the bore (if that makes any sense).

I'm not the first one to discover this, for sure, it was discussed long, long ago one the VTXOA. I'm very interested to see what Brock (big bad) discovers since he has a few he can check.
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby verbatim » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:07 pm

Wow, just did some reading on the oa board and you're right, others are reporting similar numbers.

I know a fair bit about machining and I can't for the life of me figure out how it could be that tapered. You would pretty much have to be doing that on purpose these days to get that kind of taper. No modern machine methods would ever result in that much taper if you were intending to machine a straight bore. Tool deflection would never result in that much movement. That's mind boggling. The only other explanation would be if they are doing some kind of case hardening after machining, such as carburizing. I've seen a fair amount of movement after heat treating, but even so, that much is a LOT. It's almost like someone programmed their CNC wrong. How that could get past Quality control is also beyond me. I'd be interested to see if a brand new one is any better.
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby Bareass172 » Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:27 am

verbatim wrote:I'd be interested to see if a brand new one is any better.

I am convinced that Honda knows the problem exists but refuses to acknowledge it - you can ONLY buy the entire flange from Honda with the bearings already installed. If you know a shop selling them then they are buying bearings elsewhere and reselling them.
My point behind stating this is to say that I know of multiple people who have found these flanges, brand new off the shelf, with bad bearings in them straight from Honda.

I agree that this is a pretty insane amount to be tapered in this bore, and I would be very interested to hear if anyone else has experiences or numbers they can provide to support this further. I have spoken to several people about this recently since I dealt with my first "press-in" failure a few weeks ago and we discussed how there seems to be no pattern to the failures that we've seen yet. No specific year or model more prone to it, and even the fact that some bikes run 50-100k miles with no issues while some are bad every 10-15k at a tire change.

If anyone knows of a failure with specific measurements of the bore I'd be very interested. I know Tapper started an entire thread on the VTXOA a few years ago to document failures, but most of those posts only include bike information with no specifics about the bore measurements.
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby big bad » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:13 pm

maybe i should start an exchange program? if i have one that far off i would be interested in finding a high milage 10-15,000 a year test buddy? probly wouldn't be hard to find one of those!
how many miles do you put on bare?
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby Bareass172 » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:32 pm

big bad wrote:how many miles do you put on bare?

Never as many as I wish I could... I'll leave it at that. :rofl:
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby JimAC » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:09 pm

I am wondering about this bearing you found ..Is it sealed ? I could see going to another kind of bearing if they all failed but most don't so I doubt it is an engineering mistake. If you look at the whole picture it is easy to see why there have been no complete failures of the whole rear axle assy. Once the drive spline is plugged into the tube with the ring gear and the two large bearings that support it the large bearings can carry the load from the drive flange spline too. I know this rear unit would work fine without any bearings in that space because so many have been found still running without any balls whatsoever still intact...including mine. and mine never made any noise.
I don't feel that those two bearings are overloaded or overworked but they are so tight in their bore (some of them ) that all the internal clearance is gone when they are pressed together.
That is why some of the new ones that were bought when we all went through this in 2003/2004 were clicking and had catches in them when they were tested before installing them. They had no internal clearance left between the balls and their races
Yes you can collapse an outer race of a bearing , If you press it into a hole that is smaller than the OD of the bearing, however much smaller the hole is than .0003-.0004 over the OD ,that is how much the outer race will get smaller. Especially on a lite series bearing like these.
And then if the inner race is a press fit also (which it should not be) because this is housing rotating application. You have the makings for failure.
If the shaft turns the housing is loose and shaft fit is tight. If the housing turns (vtx) then the housing is tight and the shaft (spacer bushing) is loose. For some reason honda made both a press fit ...that is usually never done.
My job since 1972 has been resleeving bearing housings for electric motors of all kinds and sizes so I have seen some things of this kind ...
All the machining of this flange was perfect ..hole was round and concentric and all indicator readings were perfect except the bore was too tight and smaller towards the shoulder
this was my post on vtxoa in 05

I have just checked out my old hub that i had a bearing failure in and found the same thing . The bore is tapered about .0005 smaller in the back and is .0025 to .003 smaller than the OD of the bearing.
If someone can check on the proper bore size we need the measurements for housing rotating as they are not the same as shaft rotating.
I did have it set up in my lathe and I dont really see anything else wrong with the machining.
I just checked it this morning and came to post and am glad it looks like we might have found the problem. Bearings are never a tight fit on both the OD and ID and I agree .002 - .003 tight is whats killing those bearings

big bad wrote:i am also thinking if this needle bearing dose not work ill find one with a smaller id that replaces the sleeve that gets pressed in i havent found a 20mm bearing to getdown to the shaft diameter but i would make a collar to get really close. the needle bearing was 35 bucks, ive spent more money on worse ideas
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby IL-Mark » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:34 pm

ALLRIGHT!!!!! I like hanging with you techie guys..

On a serious note....I've got 8-10 tire changes coming up in the next week or two. I'll check to see if these flanges are OK. If not I'll measure them and see what's what.
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby JimAC » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:53 pm

I now have 22,000 on the replacment flange that came with the bearings installed and bearings are still good now.
Because it came with the bearings already in ,I did not get to compare bore measurements


This is from VTXOA Flange bearing thread http://www.vtxoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45218
2002 VTXc
Aprox failure date 7/03
Aprox 14,000 miles
Found replacing tire
Bearing races intact cages broken ,seal out
No accident
Bought and installed new flange assy.
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby Bareass172 » Fri May 01, 2009 2:51 am

big bad wrote:ATTENTION
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
if you have bought a flange assembly and have one on your shelf, i am going to modify them and redistribute them to people i may want to buy them orif you put 10000+ a year on and willing to take one i give you and send it back for inspetion pm me, i would like to have 6 people running modified setups (trueing the bearing bore) and/or new slip fit bushing on 1800's. i need your help. i figure in bearings and shipping it will be 150 out of pocket for me. so please be kind in your prices please pm me if you have intrest
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Just requoting bigbad here so everyone sees this - I think this is a very generous offer to help resolve the situation.

Also, I really enjoy a good tech discussion that doesn't get derailed by folks interested in just causing trouble... :elated:
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby JimAC » Fri May 01, 2009 10:09 am

Big Bad Did you have any thoughts on my post and can you answer this question ? I am wondering about this bearing you found ..Is it sealed ? Also have you measured any of the five hubs you have ?
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby big bad » Fri May 01, 2009 7:34 pm

yes the bearing is sealed, and the measurements i will do next week,the only way to truly measure that bore is put it in a lathe with a .0001 ten thousands.....or my micron indicator and run the hand wheel in the z direction (linear with the spindle),

i will out of my orifice :o this weekend. i am going to replace mine (with needle bearing) and the best i can do is an id needle mike, it will tell me if there's a problem but will be no where near as accurate as stated above
Last edited by big bad on Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby JimAC » Fri May 01, 2009 8:51 pm

That is good ..I didnt think they made needle bearings that were sealed. Just a measurement with telescopic pins would be great
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