Dobeck AFR+

Tech Q&A for the VTX 1800 - PLEASE keep this section tech-oriented only!

Dobeck AFR+

Postby big bad » Tue May 13, 2014 4:58 pm

Dobeck has supplied the EJK controllers for a while. I have ran power commander 3 for about 7 years now. I had one PC3 crap the bed during that time. I wrote my own map by seat of the pants, and had good results in my own mind and on the dyno. I have played with things at the dyno like removing baffles give you 3 horse at WOT, and checked dirty vs clean vs no air filter (no changes on any of them on HP and TQ). So Bare has been spearheading with Dobeck performance the possibility of bringing their technology to the VTX's in their new AFR+. This unit consists of a 2-1/16" AFR gauge with the EJK tuning all in one package unit.



in operation:


There will be more details coming soon but I will be posting the progress as it comes. I expect to have this system running in about 3-1/2 weeks. Things to take into account will be the need to find a spot for a Bosch 17018 wideband O2 sensor (M18 x 1.5 threads) and a spot for the gauge. I have an original no-hose rear brake set up so my O2 sensor will be on the front header. They recommend 4-10 inches from the exhaust port, I want mine away from the bends, and the O2 sensor needs to be tipped down. They ask for 10 degrees, I'm around 40 degrees. This is for condensation. If I was to drill out the factory O2 location (and I could) I would expect the O2 sensor life to diminish...... possibly.

I bought a gauge pod from Dakota digital, this will be installed by my left foot off the motor mount, I hate stuff on my bars.
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I wanted a head start so I bought a bung already and I picked up a 1/8 NPT coupling and will be installing a EGT (exhaust gas temp) gauge for the hell of it too. This is unnecessary but I would like to see what my current temps are with my map and stock set up and what the EJK set up is. Perfect Stoich is the highest EGT, unless there are external forces at work creating a larger issue.

I placed my 2 bungs and will be giving them to my guy. Welding on exhaust that far up on the header should be tig welded by some one who can weld it as cold as possible. I can weld but I don't do it everyday all day. Thermal shock and the expansion of the pipe around the bung will be much faster than the area where the bung itself is. This is a recipe for disaster if I was going to just wire feed it and be done. More to come when something else happens.

And a personal thanks to "that one guy" over the phone somewhere in Montana that is heading this up and Bare. Thanks.
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Re: Afr +

Postby WsW-WYATT-EARP » Tue May 13, 2014 6:32 pm

And we wait. Will this be the gen 3 or gen 3.5 ejk?

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Re: Afr +

Postby big bad » Tue May 13, 2014 7:24 pm

3.5 as it will be using a wideband o2 and run in closed loop
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Re: Afr +

Postby Bareass172 » Tue May 13, 2014 10:51 pm

The guy spearheading this at Dobeck is named Dillon. Good guy. :thumb:
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Re: Dobeck AFR+

Postby Dobeck Tech Support » Thu May 15, 2014 2:47 pm

Dobech Tech Support here.

I want to thank Big Bad for starting this thread.
I look forward to reading about your experience and findings.
The AFR+ shipped out today, so it is en route.

As a clarification, the AFR+ is our Gen 4 technology, it is the newest fuel solution from Dobeck Performance. It utilizes a wideband O2 sensor and has close loop (auto-tune) capabilities.
The EJK comes in both Gen 3 & Gen 3.5 technology. The Gen 3 has the ability to add fuel while the Gen 3.5 has the ability to add and pull (reduce fuel below stock fueling) fuel.

You might be thinking, why would I ever want to go with the Gen 3 if it can only add fuel?
The fact is, most vehicles only need fuel added to correct the tune up.
Emissions regulations make stock vehicles run at lean AFR from the factory and most performance modifications increase air flow to the motor which will lean out the fueling further than stock.
The Gen 3.5 is available for certain performance modifications (ex: aggressive cams) that can richen up the fueling or in cases where the vehicle runs rich in certain rpm ranges of the fuel curve.

Well that's enough information from me.

Back to you Big Bad!
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Re: Dobeck AFR+

Postby WsW-WYATT-EARP » Thu May 15, 2014 8:28 pm

We got the big dogs here now....

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Re: Dobeck AFR+

Postby big bad » Sun May 18, 2014 9:25 pm

So one question I have on this unit is

Is the gauge a stand alone deal, meaning if I make my adjustments, see the unit run and go into closed loop can a guy remove the gauge and have the unit keep control with out loosing setting and capability to control what I have set running with out the gauge?

I intend on keeping it on but just curious.
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Re: Dobeck AFR+

Postby Bareass172 » Mon May 19, 2014 2:14 am

While we're asking questions, I have one... Since the unit uses the O2 sensor, at the very least to give a/f readings if not to also impact injector pulses, does Dobeck design the units to expect the "confusion" that would be created by having the emissions (smog) system intact? This just popped into my head after it came up in another thread and I remembered that dynojet guys used to have to pinch off the smog system to accurately tune bikes on the dyno.

:huh:
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Re: Dobeck AFR+

Postby Dobeck Tech Support » Mon May 19, 2014 1:11 pm

Big Bad,
The AFR gauge will have to stay connected to maintain full tuning capabilities. With the gauge, you can monitor how the bike is running and see that everything is running tip top.
If you remove the gauge, the bike will return to the stock fueling. You would want the ability to adjust your tune up on the fly.
For example: I'm on a road trip to Sturgis cruising down the highway. I want to see how good of fuel economy I can get. I would target leaner AFR values that would get me good fuel economy.
Now some guy on a Harley rolls up trying to challenge you and the VTX to see who's bike is faster. I am gonna quickly change my target AFRs to performance values so I can smoke him down the road and leave him in my dust.
Now I'm cruising through town, I want to get good fuel economy, but I want good power if I get the urge to really twist the throttle. In this case, I would target a lean AFR for fuel economy while cruising(Yellow Zone), and a rich performance AFR for when I want the power(Red Zone). With the AFR gauge, you can see the AFR you are targeting and know exactly how your engine will respond. After some time, you will know exactly what AFRs to target to best suit your engine and riding style.

Bareass172,
I believe you are referring to the AIS (Air Induction System) that many of the metric cruisers have to meet emissions regulations. I have also heard it referred to as the PAIR valve, or reed valve among other names. For those that don't know, this system allows fresh air into the exhaust so that the exhaust fumes leaving the bike meet emissions standards. When the fueling is changed or richened up with a fuel solution, the AIS needs to be plugged or removed otherwise you can experience decel pop as the excess air and additional fuel create the right environment for combustion. The AIS needs to be blocked off or removed with the AFR+ as it will throw off the reading from the O2 sensor and change the fueling.

I hope that answers your questions. Let me know if anything else arises.
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Re: Dobeck AFR+

Postby big bad » Mon May 19, 2014 10:43 pm

I had tge bung welded today. Will put pics up tomorro. Pipes are ready to go back on. I also built a heatsink for the o2 sensor that i will trim tomorro. It basically will absorb the radiant heat from the pipe. The unit arrived today and my old lady has it in her car. I intend on installing the o2 sensor and the pipes tomorro and will wait till the weekend for the rest. Pics tomorro.

And tganks for the quick response on the questions!
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Re: Dobeck AFR+

Postby Bareass172 » Tue May 20, 2014 2:04 am

Dobeck - thanks for the reply - that is EXACTLY what I wanted to know, and thanks for the clarification. I had completely forgotten about how the smog system impacts this stuff because it's been awhile since I fooled with a bike that had smog stuff intact. When it popped into my head I had to ask. We used to have the same problems way back when with the HPP units that used an O2 sensor to tune.

For anyone not completely clear, since we're measuring the air/fuel ratio of the exhaust to adjust the tuning of the bike we need to make sure we're measuring the actual air/fuel ratio in the exhaust stream. Since the PAIR, AIS, smog (whatever you want to call it :elated: ) system injects fresh air into the exhaust to meet emissions, that skews the air/fuel ratio as read by the unit. Too much "extra" air makes the system throw extra fuel to compensate and you get de-tuned. :thumb:
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Re: Dobeck AFR+

Postby big bad » Tue May 20, 2014 9:42 pm

Ok SO I Will start with what most of you want to here, Its awesome, worth every penny and don't waste your money on any other set up. I have only 20 miles on it, It took me 5 minutes to get to my final settings and could feel a difference in how it ran even more so than my PC3. I have had My bike on dynos and seen Afr from them, but only on WOT.

Now some things I learned, My bike has always been fast, not just because I say so. I have never been beat by another vtx with exception to the dual intake 2000cc monster. My fuel mileage has been 27-29 and never strayed. Wind, hills, 30 passes on a dragstrip and riding back home, it all calculated to 27=29 MPG.

My first tests was to run it at 13 across the board, and for all practical purposes this is no extra and no less fuel from stock. My green reading was at 12, yellow 13.3 and red at 13.5 this is rich. Calculated perfect ratio should be 14.7. I have a hyper charger and vance and hines pipes so this means better flow and more air flow, It should be lean not rich.

Second test was to get my green zone dialed in for mileage and perfect ratio. At 13.6 My ratio came up to 14.5-7, I then messed with the yellow and red and at 12.5 I was able to get to 12.5 .
In conclusion I see now why I get worse mileage and more power. I also noticed that at 2300 rpm and dumping the throttle The bike definitely reacts different. The lug effect really settled down and It pulls much harder at this point than it used to. I can see the gauge react and move around compensating for my throttle when I pompously change Rpm shifting up or down. I am going to go fatter in the yellow and red tomorrow and fill a tank and try to burn it up to see if my mileage normalizes

I really did a horrible job on install of the main harness, I did not remove the tank, and it is all temporary until I do, The O2 sensor came out to the position I wanted. Like everything else I cant leave well enough alone. I built a heat sink to keep the radiant heat from the header pipe from beaming down on the o2 sensor. It came out perfect it may not be necessary but what the hell. I don't have the EGT setup yet and it may be a week or so until I do. The Dakota Digital gauge pod worked well, I was surprised that the gauge was only about a inch deep. The install was extremely simple, so simple as long as the o2 is there I am confident If you can change oil you could do this with out any instructions. I used a little electrical tape and created a strain relief on all the injector plugs and other connectors, and used gas line hose to cover the wire out of the gauge pod.

I am hoping this weekend to remove my tank and get my old HID ballast out of there that I haven't used for 2 years, route wires and solidify things appropriately. I need to make a new bracket that is a little more appealing. More to come on little things I did on install.
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Re: Dobeck AFR+

Postby WsW-WYATT-EARP » Tue May 20, 2014 11:19 pm

The afr+ is different from my unit. When you say 13 across the board, you're talking a/f ratio?

When I get the SAFR unit to interact with my EJK I will be reading this very closely. It amazed me when you twist the throttle in the lower rpms and not get the lug but a nice pull and then the acceleration kicks in as the rpms increase.

Do you have a tach on your bike?

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Re: Dobeck AFR+

Postby big bad » Tue May 20, 2014 11:36 pm

There are two numbers i refrence the first will be what i set my gauge setting to. 13 is considered stock or no fuel added, after it accepts the setting i can see how it affects it by air fuel ratio. So if 13 is at 14afr then 13.3 may come out to 14.7 afr.

When i said 13 across the board i set it all to stock and just read afr of what it runs as if there was no unit, just a air fuel ratio gauge.


I dont know what generation you have, but the added benifit with the o2 is that it goes to closed loop and will keep the afr consistantly and add fuel or take it away on its own to keep the targeted setting. I hope to shoot a go pro video this weekend of it operating with correct wiring install pics
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Re: Dobeck AFR+

Postby WsW-WYATT-EARP » Tue May 20, 2014 11:44 pm

The EJK gen 3 unit has to be different from what the afr+ is. I have 8 steps (lights) with .5 step increments.

I can add the SAFR unit to check the ratio and adjust the EJK accordingly then remove the gauge and ride. When I change something or want to mess with it, put it back on and play again.

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Re: Dobeck AFR+

Postby big bad » Wed May 21, 2014 12:09 am

Yup instead of 8 steps i have closer to 60. I can set between 10 and 16 in .1 increments
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Re: Dobeck AFR+

Postby WsW-WYATT-EARP » Wed May 21, 2014 12:10 am

Do you have a tach on your bike as well?

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Re: Dobeck AFR+

Postby Bareass172 » Wed May 21, 2014 3:33 am

His bike was an F model in a former life, so he does have the stock tach that the F models came with built into the dash.
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Re: Dobeck AFR+

Postby big bad » Wed May 21, 2014 7:00 am

Sorry I meant to say that last night, it was way past my bed time. I also think that the resolution of our units are probably the same. Meaning that there's no reason to use under 12 or over 14 for settings. So 10-12 and 14-16 don't really help a guy at all.
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Re: Dobeck AFR+

Postby Bareass172 » Wed May 21, 2014 1:36 pm

Just because the 10-12 and 14-16 don't help you doesn't mean they may not help someone who is wanting to use the unit for a bike with motor mods and such. Just making that point for anyone else interested.
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