drive flange theory

Tech Q&A for the VTX 1800 - PLEASE keep this section tech-oriented only!

Oppinions after this year, please read or have read this.

1 I see and understand the wear and how its created in this post
10
38%
2 I don't see anything, the marks are coincidence
0
No votes
3 Press on the ID of the bearing is killing this
1
4%
4 Press on the od of the bearing is killing this
2
8%
5 Its a combination of press and the forces
1
4%
6 This post was well worth while
12
46%
 
Total votes : 26

Re: drive flange theory

Postby fshirley » Mon May 11, 2009 8:45 pm

mk...i grew up in Arkansas and all I have to say after reading all this is...Man my head hurts!! :lol:

But it all makes sense...just takes time to digest!
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby big bad » Mon May 11, 2009 8:49 pm

ok how bout this can you understand on a 3/8 ratchet when leverage is applied that there is a greater bite in the area shown than is distributed over the entire 12 points of a bolt?

Image

to corralate the socket in our case is a 5 point, the handle of the wratchet is the ground, and the rubbers are the bolt hex and when the socket starts to slip off the the whole hex of the nut usually dosent strip just the top, because the leverage applies more force to the top of the hex head or the final drive side cush rubbers

so a combonation of the bite area that is being generated and the cush rubbers not compressing evenly because of leverage (farther from the splines) is the cause of the "twisting"
Last edited by big bad on Mon May 11, 2009 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby JimAC » Mon May 11, 2009 9:04 pm

Don't we have 5 ratchets in the application we are talking about ? Why do you keep talking about an arm or a ratchet or a top or a tire making contact with the ground?
We have 5 points driving equally , why would this end up making something crooked ? and why wouldnt the spline drive equally with all its teeth ?
If you draw another ratchet 180 from the one you have then doesnt the force apply equally on the bolt ?
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby big bad » Mon May 11, 2009 9:28 pm

if the load or the resistance from the ground was not there and it was free spinning yes they would be loaded equally, when you but a load on it, not the weight of the bike but the load it takes to get the bike moving it dose not.

the lever of the ratchet is the 12 inches from the ground to center of the wheel, the socket is your teeth that push the rubbers, it may not truely make sence but it is a documented fact

this is am example at free spin with no opposition
also known as annular velocity it states that there in rotational inertia in all directions perpindicualar to the radius (wheel) when no energy is transfered

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/rotq.html

then as it is applied the work done to propel yourbike forward it has an change of momentum
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/rotv.html#rvec1

delta L shows the adverse affect on the flange


this is usually not a problem as long as the bearings are set up to accomodate
delta L, Delta L is not the problem it always exists, the system to accommodate for it is.
Last edited by big bad on Mon May 11, 2009 10:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby JimAC » Mon May 11, 2009 9:33 pm

Yes but the wheel rotates on its own bearings independent of this cush drive
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby big bad » Mon May 11, 2009 9:47 pm

ok..................differnet approch. same theory, the rim hub is welded to a table, you get on the bike and goose it, the transfer of force goes through the final drive to the cush hub, the force trying to turn the wheel is applies force equally in all directions or in a single direction, the transfer of force though the flange is the same as the direction of force from the wheel, think about this concept
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby JimAC » Mon May 11, 2009 9:52 pm

I say the force is equal on all portions of the cush drive no matter if the wheel turns or is welded to the table

big bad wrote:ok..................differnet approch. same theory, the rim hub is welded to a table, you get on the bike and goose it, the transfer of force goes through the final drive to the cush hub, the force trying to turn the wheel is applies force equally in all directions or in a single direction, the transfer of force though the flange is the same as the direction of force from the wheel, think about this concept
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby big bad » Mon May 11, 2009 10:00 pm

i need time to think of another analogy, and get a feel for other readers. the physics is there believe it or not, i need to translate this to words better
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby JimAC » Mon May 11, 2009 10:05 pm

I'm going to bed ..reading those two links 6 times that you posted made my head hurt ..LOL

big bad wrote:i need time to think of another analogy, and get a feel for other readers. the physics is there believe it or not, i need to translate this to words better
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby IL-Mark » Mon May 11, 2009 10:20 pm

big bad wrote:ok..................differnet approch. same theory, the rim hub is welded to a table, you get on the bike and goose it, the transfer of force goes through the final drive to the cush hub, the force trying to turn the wheel is applies force equally in all directions or in a single direction, the transfer of force though the flange is the same as the direction of force from the wheel, think about this concept


Why not eliminate the bearings and just install bronze bushings
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby big bad » Mon May 11, 2009 10:24 pm

when you look these up and you see 8000-10000 rpm check the shaft size, these bearings are put in application by sfm surface feet per minute, a 6 inch shaft running same rpm as a .1 diameter shaft is completely different


sinterd bronze or copper bearings are not suited for high rpm, most in application are use in components that don't even make 1 full revolution, something like a punch press is an good application as it takes 10 seconds to make 1 rpm, they also have an pressurised oil feed or a gravity oil feed cup ill get a pick heres an portion of an article

Nonmetallic - Nonmetallic or self-lubricating bearings often require no liquid lubricant. Self-lubricating bearings are most effective in applications where relative motion is not sufficient to circulate oil or grease required for metallic bearings. Self-lubricating bearings are also used for temperatures beyond the scope of conventional lubricants. These temperatures may range from 400 to 750°F or higher. Self-lubricating bearings are especially well suited for corrosive environments.

Friction, coupled with rapid wear, limits the application of self-lubricating bearings. The coefficient of friction of self-lubricating bearings running completely dry generally ranges from 0.1 to 0.4. The mechanical energy lost in the bearing is converted to heat, which must be dissipated. The materials generally are poor conductors of heat, so it is important to provide a means of dissipating heat from the bearing. Typically, about half the heat flows radially outward to the support housing, while the other half transfers to the shaft and flows axially away from the bearing

http://www.bearings.machinedesign.com/guiEdits/Content/BDE_6_4/bdemech_a04.aspx

no way to lubricate, bearings wont work remember 20 inch diameter wheel rotates about 1000 rpm at 60mph theyll get really hot, hotter that 475.

heres a pic of a typical babit style bearing i pulled out of a machine today, its same as whats in your car and bikes, kinda cool to see the failure, thats an gallon ice cream lid under it

Image
Last edited by big bad on Mon May 11, 2009 11:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby JimAC » Mon May 11, 2009 10:26 pm

That has already been talked about earlier in this post, no way to lubricate
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby big bad » Mon May 11, 2009 11:39 pm

JimAC wrote:Yes but the wheel rotates on its own bearings independent of this cush drive



ok, having said that, then if the wheel was direct coupled with no rubbers between would you agree that if it were a solid setup that there more force or leverage in perpindicular to the ground

and if so how do the rubbers change this, then the 1 of the 5 rubbers compress a little more than the rest would it not?

and if so then the force applied from the final drive twists the flange under extream torque loads cause the support area is to narrow supporting the flange

top is stock bottom is an exaddgerated fix.

Image



Please read whole page slowly and meticulously if something dose not make sense continue and come back to it after reading all my posts on may 11th. If 1 makes sense the others will follow

not yelling, this is heavy stuff, skimming it will only create confusion.
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby IL-Mark » Tue May 12, 2009 9:41 am

I love it.....this is very interesting.......also intimidating. I know one thing, what I thought I knew about bearings is just a small fraction compaired to the actual knowledge (of some of you guys) and information that is out there.
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby Jon's1800VTXC » Tue May 12, 2009 1:16 pm

I'll offer a service for a few trials also using my method. Send me any spare flanges you have, and I'll machine the inner collar and install new bearings. I'll do it for my cost of the bearings and a new collar if needed. With shipping from my end it's about $36-40 shipped
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby IL-Mark » Tue May 12, 2009 4:10 pm

Jon's1800VTXC wrote:I'll offer a service for a few trials also using my method. Send me any spare flanges you have, and I'll machine the inner collar and install new bearings. I'll do it for my cost of the bearings and a new collar if needed. With shipping from my end it's about $36-40 shipped


You getting your bearings local or some supply house?
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby big bad » Tue May 12, 2009 5:44 pm

ok, then i see your point of views, the force applied as i continue to get my point accross ive found a way to explain it, or well some one else did

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque


pay attention to the pic of the ball and the top. particularlily the top this top is your flange and the forces are uneven. then look at the cutaway of the bearings posted earlier, relate the two.

torrque and twist have been mentioned enough through the post also read these 2 paragraphs, don't look at any math no fomulas. dose this help?

Image

Torque is the tendency of a force to rotate an object about an axis[1] (or fulcrum or pivot). Just as a force is a push or a pull, a torque can be thought of as a twist. The symbol for torque is τ, the Greek letter tau.
Torque is also called moment or moment of force. This should neither be confused with the various other definitions of "moment" in physics nor with "momentum". In the context of mechanical engineering, the terms "moment" and "torque" are not necessarily interchangeable; rather, one or the other may be preferred in a specific context. For example, "torque" is usually used to describe a rotational force down a shaft, for example a turning screw-driver, whereas "moment" is more often used to describe a bending force on a beam.[citation needed]
The magnitude of torque depends on three quantities: First, the force applied; second, the length of the lever arm[2] connecting the axis to the point of force application; and third, the angle between the two. In symbols:
Machine torque
Torque is part of the basic specification of an engine: the power output of an engine is expressed as its torque multiplied by its rotational speed of the axis. Internal-combustion engines produce useful torque only over a limited range of rotational speeds (typically from around 1,000–6,000 rpm for a small car). The varying torque output over that range can be measured with a dynamometer, and shown as a torque curve. The peak of that torque curve occurs somewhat below the overall power peak. The torque peak cannot, by definition, appear at higher rpm than the power peak.
Understanding the relationship between torque, power and engine speed is vital in automotive engineering, concerned as it is with transmitting power from the engine through the drive train to the wheels. Power is typically a function of torque and engine speed. The gearing of the drive train must be chosen appropriately to make the most of the motor's torque characteristics.
Steam engines and electric motors tend to produce maximum torqe

we love the torque we just need to support it. I cannot back away. This is 95% of the flange bearing failure is due to this. The other 5 percent is pressing process and bad bearings form factory, like lack of lube. Please tell me its starting to make sense?
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby Addikted » Tue May 12, 2009 6:54 pm

:pop: :pop: :pop:

I get it :clap: lol
Image
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby IL-Mark » Tue May 12, 2009 10:56 pm

Ok I'm going to TRY and explain what I learned tonight in my phone conversation w/ Big Bad.
Hope I don't get an "F" on my final exam.... :please:

The axle from the final drive to the flange bearing acts as an fulcrum(see fulcrum below) combined with the torque it creates a twisting force that puts more pressure on the drive side flange bearing. This is the bearing that I believe fails more than the other. The twisting starts as a vertical down ward force but translates (slightly rotates) into angulated force (more like front to rear on some degree of angle. This will create the effect shown here below in this picture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever
Image Levers can be used to exert a large force over a small distance at one end by exerting only a small force over a greater distance at the other.
Now if we distribute the load or torque over a broader area we should be able to reduce or eliminate bearing failure .

Image
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Re: drive flange theory

Postby Jon's1800VTXC » Wed May 13, 2009 11:10 am

IL-Mark wrote:
Jon's1800VTXC wrote:I'll offer a service for a few trials also using my method. Send me any spare flanges you have, and I'll machine the inner collar and install new bearings. I'll do it for my cost of the bearings and a new collar if needed. With shipping from my end it's about $36-40 shipped


You getting your bearings local or some supply house?


I buy them from the local Honda stealer. I tried to source them from a local bearing house but they wanted almost $20 a piece for the bearings :shock:
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