drive flange theory

Tech Q&A for the VTX 1800 - PLEASE keep this section tech-oriented only!

Oppinions after this year, please read or have read this.

1 I see and understand the wear and how its created in this post
10
38%
2 I don't see anything, the marks are coincidence
0
No votes
3 Press on the ID of the bearing is killing this
1
4%
4 Press on the od of the bearing is killing this
2
8%
5 Its a combination of press and the forces
1
4%
6 This post was well worth while
12
46%
 
Total votes : 26

Re: drive flange theory

Postby Smoken'JOE » Tue May 05, 2009 5:06 pm

JimAC wrote:Joe ..I cant help but wonder ...Have you read anything I posted in this thread ?

I guess I have a different theory and opinion. I'm not disagreeing with you, just throwing out a different idea.
I guess I never thought Honda Engineers were this stupid. :rofl:
2002 VTX 1800R/S
Image
Smoken'JOE
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:49 am
Bike: VTX 1800R/S

Advertisement

Re: drive flange theory

Postby JimAC » Tue May 05, 2009 5:17 pm

Joe I mean this part of my earlier post in this thread
I could see going to another kind of bearing if they all failed but most don't so I doubt it is an engineering mistake. If you look at the whole picture it is easy to see why there have been no complete failures of the whole rear axle assy. Once the drive spline is plugged into the tube with the ring gear and the two large bearings that support it the large bearings can carry the load from the drive flange spline too. I know this rear unit would work fine without any bearings in that space because so many have been found still running without any balls whatsoever still intact...including mine. and mine never made any noise.

"I've looked at this and can't figure out if the flange bearings even turn or when
And yes they do rotate exactly the same rpm as your wheel ..dont you beleive me ?
JimAC
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:59 am
Bike: 2002 VTX c

Re: drive flange theory

Postby big bad » Tue May 05, 2009 10:18 pm

Every thing in this post is speculation, truth all posts are mearly speculation. All based on opinion, every one has that right, I appreciate everyone that has posted even if i don't share your point of view, My belief is that the engineers overlooked something, i would be supprised if my flange had taper because of the way they came out, and my bearings have gone out at 12000 miles apiece. not sure thats coincidence,

Also everyone rides different, i ride pretty hard i bent a modified driveshaft on my 280 kit, and beleive it or not i bent a stock drive shaft, it very well could be those that hammer on the throttle have more issues than those that ride more conservatively. But allong the way one thing we can agree on is, we have a bike that out of the box is dependable and goes through no parts gaskets or any minor maintence issue, but there is one that would be nice to resolve, by application, installation or manufacturing.

Truth is i don't know, but id like to find out, posts come out harsh and we miss a lot of communication when we type words instead of say them. :shock:
big bad
 
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:15 am
Bike: 1800 f vtx 05

Re: drive flange theory

Postby Bareass172 » Wed May 06, 2009 1:08 am

I R lurnin! :elated:

Seriously though, I don't fully understand how these loads are distributed across bearings, so I'm closely reading everything you guys are saying and trying to learn. Once I understand stuff I'm usually pretty good at figuring out solutions, it's the understanding part that sometimes takes me a little time. Having guys who know to bounce questions and ideas off of helps me learn what's important much faster. ;)

So to recap the things I understand to be important (sorry if I overlooked something):
I feel that that bore is too small and I have seen a taper in the bores I've measured (which is admittedly only a handful).
JimAC feels that the inner sleeve bushing is too big.
big bad has a needle bearing with numbers to support that it has superior load handling characteristics (right?) it just needs practical application for testing.

If I've missed anything that's important please mention it, I may have forgotten or overlooked it by accident.

So with that said I'm interested to see some bore measurements when the next person has a chance to get their hands on one. I thought I was going to have one last week but the guy had a warranty on the bike so he took the flange back to the dealer for replacement.
User avatar
Bareass172
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4529
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:45 am
Location: New Orleans, LA
Bike: 2002 Honda VTX 1800C

Re: drive flange theory

Postby Smoken'JOE » Wed May 06, 2009 7:10 am

JimAC wrote:
"I've looked at this and can't figure out if the flange bearings even turn or when
And yes they do rotate exactly the same rpm as your wheel ..dont you beleive me ?


I sat down and went through the prints and now understand how the bearing turns with the wheel. Didn't doubt you, didn't quit follow.
2002 VTX 1800R/S
Image
Smoken'JOE
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:49 am
Bike: VTX 1800R/S

Re: drive flange theory

Postby Jon's1800VTXC » Wed May 06, 2009 8:10 pm

I don't think the roller bearing will work. The engineers at Honda have been using these type of hubs and flanges for a long time. I think there is a high percentage of failures but from my simpple measurements I still believe it's due to the collar being to large for the id sleeve of the bearings. I surely wouln't want the liability of proving a test hub with that roller bearing :shock:
Why doesn't P.E.T.A ever attack a biker wearing a leather jacket ????
Jon's1800VTXC
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:08 pm
Bike: 2003 VTX 1800CRFN

Re: drive flange theory

Postby big bad » Wed May 06, 2009 11:01 pm

we are afraid of what we do not know........i think it will work, but if it dosen't youd better call yamaha, and tell them. i am not just throwing a bearing in there and rolling the dice, i did alot of reaserch before i opened my mouth, i am very meticulous, and when i put this post up, i knew i would be under scrutiny, i refuse to do the same thing over and over and expect different results.

regardless my bearing is in and well sein a few weeks if theres a failure, or 2 years and 2xxxxx if theres not,

look up a raider ive been real intemate with one for a few weeks
http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche.com/Xtremepowersports/Yamaha_OEM/YamahaMC.asp?Type=13&A=607&B=30

or a warrior both big bikes, both belt but so what, or a roadliner

most cush hubs are not as deep. whether is belt or shaft you are still transfering force indirectly, i am more than happy to play guinne pig, i have a few people to run flanges that i will rework and keep the press straight at .0008 and an inner sleeve that is a slip fit with stock bearings


i also did one today that was starthig to fail, will put picks up when photobucket lets me in, i am sending it to a place that will check it out and try to get some answers from people that look at bearings every day that have failures, it should be interesting

i hear i don't think that will work alot, if we don't try were no farther a head, the neck bearings in 1300s were probably thought of by the same engineers, theres always a solution.
big bad
 
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:15 am
Bike: 1800 f vtx 05

Re: drive flange theory

Postby JimAC » Wed May 06, 2009 11:43 pm

It looks to me like the roller bearing on the yamaha carries the load of the drive belt and is directly under the belt pully ..is that right ?
Are you thinking that this is the same situation as the vtx ? The spline on the vtx drive flange plugs directly inside of a large bearing
inside of the hub
I think that the flanges that you are correcting the fits on will last a very long time ..Here are some sizes and limits i got from an NTN
engineer today for housing rotating fit

Have you been machining VTX bores and bushings all along or did you just start ?
I dont understand this part of your post
"i refuse to do the same thing over and over and expect different results"
If you are boring them and making the bushing smaller that is a new thing that may very well give you different results than a bearing failure..right ?



.9840
.9835

1.6532
1.6522
JimAC
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:59 am
Bike: 2002 VTX c

Re: drive flange theory

Postby Jon's1800VTXC » Thu May 07, 2009 6:41 pm

Anyone have anything new to add ????
Why doesn't P.E.T.A ever attack a biker wearing a leather jacket ????
Jon's1800VTXC
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:08 pm
Bike: 2003 VTX 1800CRFN

Re: drive flange theory

Postby big bad » Thu May 07, 2009 9:02 pm

why yes john thanks for asking, Below are pics of a set of bearings. notibly bad. Bearing retainer (the piece that seperates the balls) has failed. I found this failure by chance, you can see the ball has been molested by retainer shrapnal. I stopped by two bearing places, one said the only way it would of failed was by a side load od taper nay cause stiffness but if the bearing was smooth after install it would be smooth for life,id press is not an issue, then i went to my bearing house thats when it got interesting.....................................

what can you tell me about the bearing, he said the witness marks on the od tell him that the bore was straight, otherwise the marks would fade on the od, and that the shaft that was going through it was not supported putting a load in the bearing that was not pependicular to the shaft, and that if there were say 14 balls the 5 on the left and right side are trying to track in the center of the races in they're "happy spot" the poor balls 2 on the top and bottom of the load are smashed on opposite sides of the races. eventually the bearing retainer gets old like people do and breaks they are not made to flex. so its all down hill from there.

then i asked about the press issue he said the od can get deformed especially if its not straight, if its an issue a tool on the od and a hammer will work best because it will allow it to vibrate straight as you go, where a press will drive it home with little concern for straightness many people "set" bearings with a hammer after pressing them in because it takes the stress out of them., then i asked about id press, he said you shouldn't have to press fit on the id because it fill either float on a shaft or have a spacer to size and locked down, and i asked what about od expansion under a press fit. He took 8 bucks from me grabed a bearing went in the back and we pressed it on a (spike mike) a shaft with 1 tenth taper every inch with 1/2 inch straight shaft, i measured every step up to 3 thousands with a pressure mike (a micrometer that has an indicator dial on it that you zero on a gauge block, it takes human error out of the picture with a thimble style and it only measures in tenths) no expansion then we put face shields on and put the glass down and at .0036 the bearing cracked in half and bounced of the glass about 20 times, i showed him the exploded diagram and his response was "thats stupid"

most of the high horse bikes have either a considerably larger bearing or they are directly under the area of force, my hayabusa has both

look at the m109 exploded veiw,

my bearing is getting sent off it costs me 85 bucks but this all came from the guy that sends them in and explains them to the customers, ive worked with him for 6 years he started that bearing house before i was born. I rode all day on needles

yes jim you are correct on the yamaha diagram, the figures you got are correct, .0005 to .0015 on the high side, i have done quite a bit if work with people to help educate them, i do not charge aslong as they want to learn it, i have never done anything but replace mine or people from mn, but if it works and people want it done i wouldn't screw your brains out. But at this point its not an option, if some one really wanted to try it after 3000 miles on mine to the right guy i may, i out on 200 tonight, stay tuned

"i refuse to do the same thing over and over and expect different results" i am looking for progress not perfection, jon1800 said he didn't think they would work. I was curious why is it a gut feeling or did he ask his 8 ball. it seems as if he is looking forward to this failing, im just trying to help. I want to share as i go, ill give detailed pics when he is right.


broch scheller



Image

Image
big bad
 
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:15 am
Bike: 1800 f vtx 05

Re: drive flange theory

Postby JimAC » Thu May 07, 2009 9:37 pm

"and i asked what about od expansion under a press fit"
I am not understanding this part of your post ..you measured the OD of what?
Are you saying you pressed the inner race on a shaft and measured the outer race diameter ?
or did you take a bearing apart and measure the OD of the inner race as it got tighter and tighter?
JimAC
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:59 am
Bike: 2002 VTX c

Re: drive flange theory

Postby JimAC » Thu May 07, 2009 9:51 pm

Nobody would want your idea to fail and if it works it might be a great find.
Do you have to modify anything to use this bearing ?
JimAC
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:59 am
Bike: 2002 VTX c

Re: drive flange theory

Postby JimAC » Thu May 07, 2009 9:58 pm

How much side to side movement is there between the cush drive and the bore it fits into ? I dont remember ever checking that . I mean after the snap ring is put in ..how much can you move the assy in its bore ?
JimAC
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:59 am
Bike: 2002 VTX c

Re: drive flange theory

Postby big bad » Thu May 07, 2009 10:34 pm

1 the od measurement was taken directly off the od of the inner race i cut a outer race bearing off and removed the balls

2 there is no modification, it is the same id od and width you do have to center the outer race depth wise in the bore the inner race is 18 mm wide and the outer race is 17 so you cant shouldnt pount it in until it stops

3 with the stock beaing there is no side movement, i put the flang on the final and slid the race inand measured like .013 and then put the flande in the wheel and got the same measured the with of the inner race against the outer race and got under 30 thou, this tells me its sandwitched in there pretty tight, i got a 240 so i need to find a stock one to do the same, i have a few volenteers and once i get 3500 on mine or so i will put one in a stock bike both 18 and 13 to make sure the geometry is the same
big bad
 
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:15 am
Bike: 1800 f vtx 05

Re: drive flange theory

Postby JimAC » Fri May 08, 2009 4:40 am

Thanks for the replies, I am trying to follow along and want to be sure I understand.
on the third question I was asking for a different measurement though
If you take the rubber or whatever they are blocks out of the cush drive and install the cush assy back in the wheel and put the indicator on tha drive spline.
How much can the cush assy move in the bore it fits into in the wheel ?
No axle and no bearing involved..just the wheel laying on the bench with the cush assy in it.
JimAC
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:59 am
Bike: 2002 VTX c

Re: drive flange theory

Postby Jack » Fri May 08, 2009 8:12 am

The guys on the Valkyrie board have discussed similar problems and have decided the failures are due to insufficient lubrication and improper torque. Several Valks develop the problem at 25-35,000 miles. Mine did. I replaced the bearings(oem) and have had no more problems. It seems folks that use Honda shop mechanics have more problems than the do-it-yourself guys.
Image
User avatar
Jack
 
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:02 pm
Location: Benton, Arkansas
Bike: 1999 Valk, 2006 Triumph Rocket 3

Re: drive flange theory

Postby JimAC » Fri May 08, 2009 9:03 am

They think that the axle nut was not torqued properly ? Too tight or too loose ?

Jack wrote:The guys on the Valkyrie board have discussed similar problems and have decided the failures are due to insufficient lubrication and improper torque. Several Valks develop the problem at 25-35,000 miles. Mine did. I replaced the bearings(oem) and have had no more problems. It seems folks that use Honda shop mechanics have more problems than the do-it-yourself guys.
JimAC
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:59 am
Bike: 2002 VTX c

Re: drive flange theory

Postby Jack » Fri May 08, 2009 9:14 am

JimAC wrote:They think that the axle nut was not torqued properly ? Too tight or too loose ?

Jack wrote:The guys on the Valkyrie board have discussed similar problems and have decided the failures are due to insufficient lubrication and improper torque. Several Valks develop the problem at 25-35,000 miles. Mine did. I replaced the bearings(oem) and have had no more problems. It seems folks that use Honda shop mechanics have more problems than the do-it-yourself guys.



Evidently, either way possibly but, more likely, too loose.
Image
User avatar
Jack
 
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:02 pm
Location: Benton, Arkansas
Bike: 1999 Valk, 2006 Triumph Rocket 3

Re: drive flange theory

Postby Bareass172 » Fri May 08, 2009 4:55 pm

Jack wrote:Evidently, either way possibly but, more likely, too loose.

I guess I never thought about that, I can say that I have seen one failure for sure that was a result of an improperly torqued axle. The guy brought the bike in for work and his axle was FINGER tight - long story behind it all, but his bearing was shot.

As for the rest of this, I'm enjoying what I understand. It's not often that I'm on the learning end of these threads so thanks to everyone. :elated:

On a side note, I never thought about the potential "wobble" in the flange via the cush drive. There is an O-ring on the "plate" that sits in the cush drive - I'm talking about the "plate" that the flange mounts to. As best as I can tell, that O-ring helps align the flange on the "plate" as well as hold some moly in between the 2 surfaces... If I get a rear tire in the next week or so I can put it on the bench and throw the gauge on it to see what kind of movement/deflection the cush drive allows. I don't have anything scheduled right now, but it's spring and tire changes pop up almost overnight.

Thanks again to everyone involved. ;)
User avatar
Bareass172
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4529
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:45 am
Location: New Orleans, LA
Bike: 2002 Honda VTX 1800C

Re: drive flange theory

Postby Jon's1800VTXC » Fri May 08, 2009 5:50 pm

I have a wheel off now, I might be able to measure before the weekend is out. I can tell you it's more play than one would think ;)
Why doesn't P.E.T.A ever attack a biker wearing a leather jacket ????
Jon's1800VTXC
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:08 pm
Bike: 2003 VTX 1800CRFN

PreviousNext

Return to VTX 1800 Tech

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

  • Advertisement
cron