drive flange theory

[IL-Mark]

Hope your knee is doing well

[big bad]

That is the factory bushing with the needle collar (inner race) on it that diameter of the shoulder has no function other than to allow the crush between the flange bearing and the wheel bearing, and the reason it is so damaged is because of a critical failure. Meaning the bearing implodes and the balls turn unrecognizable and the ball retainer gets liberated.

When this happens the flange is not supported by the bearings anymore..... because there are none. The twisting action fo the flange (why this post was started) allows the flange to move the same direction as the axel. The balls get between the shoulder the you press the bearings up to and the largest diameter on the bushing and is marks it up.

In short it is damaged because it has failed, bad.... more than once.

The zip tie was put on so others could visualize what quarter they were looking at and how the marks are around it.

That is the original bushing that came on my bike.

I also put a poll up for anyone that has been following this, I hope there are a few that have been following this and honestly want theyre oppinion. I ask those who know me in person to not vote thank you.

0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Feb 20th 2010
Today I got 2 flanges in, I opened up the bores for a guy. I also took a stock bearing and pressed pressed it in as crocked as i could, it was crunchy. I machinned a bore 3 thou oversize ans pressed another bearing in that it was not. I think pressing them in straight, and maybe releving the stress by a hammer on the od of the race may help the crunchyness many comein contact with. Its worth a try...

[JimAC]

Please write this in a way a person can understand what you are doing If it is going to help anyone
You are saying you opened up a bore .003 and you still had to press it in ? And you pressed a bearing in as crooked as you could and the bearing didnt cut the bore or make a big burr half way around ? I am not understanding this , you have never found a tight bore yet but here you are removing .003 and the bearing is still a press fit ?

Feb 20th 2010
Today I got 2 flanges in, I opened up the bores for a guy. I also took a stock bearing and pressed pressed it in as crocked as i could, it was crunchy. I machinned a bore 3 thou oversize ans pressed another bearing in that it was not. I think pressing them in straight, and maybe releving the stress by a hammer on the od of the race may help the crunchyness many comein contact with. Its worth a try...[/quote]

[big bad]

I did a few things

1 i had some one give me 2 flanges and i opened the bores up. To a light press. How light? light enough you could press them in by hand. He will be placing one in a bike with 2 faliures over low milage.

2 After machining the flanges oversize (making a larger diameter) i pourposly pressed a bearing in crooked. A little at a time. when it was 1/8 uneven it was crunchy. Because of the amount of pressure and being crooked.

3 I took a slug of steel 6 inches in diameter and bored a through hole four thousands .004 over the press amount that the flanges came out to. Per a bore gauge. I could not press the bearing in with a hydraulic jack. I them opened it to .003 press and was able to press the bearing in. It rotated fine.

opinion
My point is there is a reason these bearings get crunchy when we press them in. I opened it for discussion earlier. I ws curious. And i think the hard press and not being straight at the same time may have an impact. I beleive if the bearings are smooth when after installed they will be smooth.

Also Originally the guy that sent me 2 flanges asked for my mod, I sent him 2 of my own with my set up, and his 2 with slip fit bushing and hand press bearings in the od. I said before the only test will be with some one with multiple failures, so now i can try it.

He will be installing the bearings in the stock flanges with light press, an i loaded my own


======================================================================================================

March 18 2010

It is with great irony, well not really this happens all the time usually the affects are not that visible but I guess most realize at this point i fix stuff, not just replace parts. Here is an example that shows the affects very well. What you are seeing is a vane plate that closes airflow to a large centrifical chiller, much like a turbine this is a large compressor.

This vane plate has some forces on it the centers are not supported, much like the driving members of the flange. There for leverage will not be kind to them. Before i have the gentlman come back and tell me this is not a drive flange, i realize that. But in the begining we said there are 2 forces applied on bearings, thrust and radial. Bearings all have the basic ideas in mindto hold something under forces and allow it to rotate.

This is the same plate, oneside. And then the other side Next 2 pics, notice the pressure areas, the discoloration.



Here is what it goes to, this is a move able vane set, they move and allow refrigerant to pass and modulate is as it needs, the one in the enter is teh one in the above pics. Do you see how the forces want to apple force on these?


At this point you brobably think they need some support right? guess what 2 ball bearings back to back wouldnt work, unless they were 3 feet apart. But needle bearing will


When this runs there is a lot of pressure sucking those plates in.



Here is them as they oscilate
http://s315.photobucket.com/albums/ll442/bowtieguy199995/flange/?action=view&current=0317101113.flv

I have rebuilt this from one end to the other, even the motor. The bolt in the upper right is 7/8 diameter to give you an idea that this is not a little fan. This is a 1100 amp motor.


So do we think that i should call the vendor and tell him is needle bearings are to tight? maybe his bore is eggshape, maybe the inner rod (bushing) is to big?

[IL-Mark]

Can you mount that on my bike..wonder if I'd go faster?

[JimAC]

"So do we think that i should call the vendor and tell him is needle bearings are to tight? maybe his bore is eggshape, maybe the inner rod (bushing) is to big?"

Whatever makes you happy

[big bad]

So, do i dare ask Jim. Is that the only thing you walked away with today?

What makes me happy is sharing my findings and my possible solution and backing it up with data and proof that it is viable withthose who care. To help others gain an understanding how ever mechanical or not so mechanical they may be.

Discussing facts and figures and data that others have and learning from them when i can.

[Bareass172]

C'mon Jim, I know you're better than that...

I don't understand all the negativity surrounding this discussion, I never have... I've kept my mouth shut (until now) because I respect so many of the people involved in this discussion, and over the years I have learned to trust the knowledge they have to share. Obviously, throughout this discussion, there have been a lot of differing opinions and some people think this is ridiculous, unnecessary, overkill, etc... But why get involved (and this isn't directed at any one person) if you just want to be deconstructive to the conversation?

People thought the Wright brothers were insane for trying to fly, look at us now... I'm not trying to compare a bearing/flange issue with the invention of flight, but for %@*#'s sake, who's this hurting that it has some people so up in arms over it? We've got a guy spending his time and his money to help evaluate and solve a problem - all the while trying to teach a little as he goes - and for some reason people are aggravated about it. No one's asking anyone else for their time or their money on this, if you don't want to get involved in the discussion in a positive way then perhaps it's best to just shut the hell up.

Please understand that I say this with ALL RESPECT for everyone that has been involved in this discussion, and by no means am I saying that to be involved in this discussion you have to AGREE with everything stated... But to only post inflammatory remarks doesn't do anyone any good.

To be very clear, this isn't directed at any one person, there have been people throughout this entire discussion that have jumped in to derail the conversation... I just hope that this type of stuff can stop so that big bad can do his thing here. I enjoy the stuff he does, I enjoy the break from the monotony of the same old questions over and over again, and I enjoy the discussions with everyone that come out of it all... I think there is a lot to be learned, by myself and a bunch of others too.

[IL-Mark]

Well put.

[big bad]

The truth is i want everyone to be heard, want every one to have input. There is much experiance that follows many of us. If there is a need to create discussion on just press fits, please start another post.

I don't blame people for not wanting to read 19pgs and honestly it shouldn't be 19 pgs. I brought this here because i hoped it would have been given a chance, and it has by some.

I sent a Pm to 6 people letting them know that my inspection pictures were posted months ago, no comments followed. I want to thank peopel for bringing thoughts to the table especially Mark and Bare. I am looking forward to a new riding and testing season, I have more than just the flange.

[coltergeist]

The poll would only let me vote for one option. I agree on three of the points. I agree with BB that its a combination of the too-tight press in on the OD of the bearings as well as the torque applied causing a twisting motion to the bearings.

My bike - 03 1800 R - currently 54,495 miles. Replaced stock flange bearings April of 09 - approx. 44,000 miles (didn't record mileage then).

When I took mine apart earlier this week, I was missing the outer seal on both bearings. When installed, the bearings had seals on both sides. Both of the flange bearings had less than full complement of ball bearings remaining. Found pieces of the seals all over. Found one loose intact ball bearing. Don't know where the others went. The seals of the bearings where they are shoulder to shoulder were intact. At the suggestion of Bareass, I also opened up the cush drive and checked the dampers - mine appeared to be heat damaged and compressed but I have no idea of their "new" shape so I'm not sure how much distortion actually occurred.

Looking at the setup with my admittedly ignorant eyes, my question is: Do we really need flange bearings? It seems like they are unnecessary. The flange itself transfers the rotational torque to the cush drive and then to the wheel itself. The axle is only there for the wheel bearings to spin around - it doesn't have any torque applied to it - just direct force of gravity holding the wheel in a "centered" position. Without the flange bearings, wouldn't that just be vacant space, possibly aid in cooling?

I await the judgment of my betters.

[big bad]

It is my belief that the forces that hurt bearings would hurt something else. If the bearings were removed think of it this way.

1 If the bearings were to be removed would the forces still be applied?
Yes, they would exert pressure on other components

2 What would that hurt?
The next components are
Splines in final drive, they would rub themselves to death because they would not be parallel, like this.
this is last years bent and twisted drive shaft

Wheel bearings The wheel bearing is already a heavier class bearing becasue of these forces, never comprimise saftey. Wheel bearings are necissary
Cush Rubbers The rubbers would fail. They would leave a rubber dust like material and get soft over time.
This is all opinnion. The forces will have an affect over time on all of these things, I am very open to some one trying this, and show. You may even get lucky and wear the splines in the final drive to the point where it cracks?

I can guarrentee, If it was bearings were removed and you ran a x down the road at 70mph the final drive temp would go from 90-100 degrees to 180+ .

I do beleive it bearings are essential. The greater flaw was not the bearings but where the bearings are in the flange (they should have been directly under the rubbers and allow the splines to be unsupported.

[Bareass172]

I agree 100% with everything BB said regarding not having bearings. As I understand the problem and our current discussion of solutions I believe that you'd have terrible wear on the drive splines. If you go back several pages, I had done some testing on the amount of deflection you can achieve against the stock cush rubbers. That deflection is part of why I believe we see bearing failures, and in that same section I also showed some signs of heat build-up on the drive splines of a flange that suffered a significant failure.

If it makes it easier to think about it, consider this - without the bearings you could have an even greater amount of deflection - this would lead to the problems in other places we discussed. You can kind of think about the flange bearings in terms of a pilot bearing - they are not really supposed to carry a load, they are supposed to keep the flange aligned on the axle to prevent the deflection that occurs.

Thanks to BB I can now understand how a double ball bearing setup (like the stock setup) would work if the bearings were not stacked directly on top of each other. Being that they are so close together they cannot overcome the leverage placed on them by the torque of this motor - this is why the needle bearing is a superior design.

It's amazing, but formulating this post helped me to realize just how much I learned in this discussion... I was aware of all the individual "parts" of the discussion, but this helped me to bring them all together.

Thanks Broch, I'm a little smarter today.

[coltergeist]

"they are not really supposed to carry a load, they are supposed to keep the flange aligned on the axle to prevent the deflection that occurs" (Bare).

That I can understand. All I'm saying it that the axle itself gets none of the torque. It's stationary. It's the spine and the flange rotating around it that the force is applied to and the flange doesn't seem flexible at all. I do understand that the design of the cush drive with the "sandwich" of metal plate/rubber dampers/metal plate will cause some twisting.

Anyway. Mine's all put back together. Riding tomorrow and I'll let you know how it feels.

[big bad]

I wanted to share this as it also "carrys a little weight" . Im not making this up i swear.
I keep those who i talk to private, The identity is more than welcome to come forward. But i feel this needs to be filed publicly.

Getting the second failure at less milage raised an alarm this told me there was a variable added. Like riding 2 up with bare. The trailer showed up induced more wear, flange failed. In this senario i beleive his flange will fail every 11000-17000 miles, depedending on how many hills he climbs, stoplights or 80mph free way.

If there was no trailer his flange would probably still be in the bike. And working.

PM's excanged today

I just experienced my 2nd drive flange bearing failure. First one occurred somewhere around 40,000 to 45,000 miles, April of 09. Second one occurred sometime since then and the current 54,549 odometer reading. I don't do burnouts but I do hammer the throttle going up through the gears and I use downshifting for braking in curves and coming up to stops. I do ride "aggressive" but not reckless. Never wheelied. On road trips, I often pull a light trailer behind the bike. Rarely have 2 up as wife is very warm weather rider only. Removed the rear wheel this past Monday evening to find that the flange bearings were shot again.

ME
oops one more question
Did you get the trailer after 2o,ooo miles? Or did you run it from when you first got your bike.
Heres why I ask
It seems like a little thing but added pulling weigh will also give the same affects. Look at how a truck reacts when pulling a trailer. It is a much smaller scale but its there on the bike stock so more stress will not help anything.

OOOHHHHHH. You're really good. Yep, purchased the trailer later. Somewhere in the 30,000 mile ballpark, but didn't take note of the mileage when purchased.

[big bad]

Regarding these tests.

I have many people ready to slam in a Needle only. I do not recommend this. The reason this is successful is also the ball bearing.

I do see good results but it is not correct to run just a needle bearing. The flange will beable to move twords the final drive.

Do not use VXB bearins, order your bearings form a Industrial supplier, and Install is as imporntant as application. If you do not full understand the hows, the whys. Give them to some one that will.

I good bearings, good craftsmanship and good engineering are all vital. Sacrifice one its not on me.
Many pic through and get enough to be dangerous with this, 15 emails for needle bearing only it scares me a little.

[big bad]

Contrast, to another issue.

1300 neck bearings...........

The 1300s have a ball bearing, the forks have strain not only up and down parallel with the steering stem, but the forks have pressure as if the front wheel was pushing against the radiator shroud.

Although the bearings on the neck are anular contact. Over time these forces harm the bearing If the bearing not properly preloaded it will cause a premature failure. Even if they are it will cause a failure. No rotational forces there? small load weight wise....

What is the fix? ...... a properly designed system, with a angular tapered needle bearing, commonly known as a roller bearing.

[Bareass172]

The mileage before the trailer was a good catch, even I didn't connect those dots...

I have many people ready to slam in a Needle only. I do not recommend this. The reason this is successful is also the ball bearing.

About this, are you convinced that a part of the success in this design is the increased leverage by having a taller "stack" of bearings against the axle? I'm just trying to figure you're reasoning for this. I know we discussed leverage and how 2 ball bearings spaced apart could handle more force than 2 bearings in a stack (like the OEM flange). So is the ball bearing plus the needle bearing and the overall increased "height" of bearing against the axle part of the equation here?

[big bad]

Yes you did hit it on the head.

The farther apart the bearings are the better control of the leverage. While the needle bearing alone is doing well to date, and may be a viable option alone at my Current mileage it is to early to tell. If I can get 40k that's 5x longer than the stock set. Analyzing that at that point will tell me everything.

Until then, the needle bearing with the additional support that is closer under the cush drives will not only amplify the control of leverage but it keeps the flange from moving towards and away from the final drive. This movement will over time degrade the cush rubbers, so at that point what have we gained? fix the bearing issue to have to replace cush rubbers? This seems Silly, I hope this conveys what I'm trying to say. Roughly put, The needle bearing and ball bearing is a viable solution that fixes the problem and will not create another one. We are looking at a system, not just a set of bearings.

Your statements recently tells me you have your head wraped around this, this makes me happy.

[Bareass172]

Your statements recently tells me you have your head wraped around this, this makes me happy.

That makes 2 of us.